Posted by: James McDonald | April 25, 2008

Troubled by Texas

Let me start by stating emphatically that I believe the Fundamental Latter Day Saint organization to be a cult. I do not support their doctrines or their practices in any way. I believe polygamy is wrong and should not be part of the Christian culture. But…

I am very troubled by what has happened to the children and the families associated with their Yearning for Zion Ranch.

Here’s the summary: An anonymous tip was received at an abuse center. Someone claiming to be a young girl said she was forced to marry a 50-year-old man and then physically and sexually abused. Armed with this tip, Texas Child Protective Services was awarded a search warrant. The officials descended upon the complex, armed to the teeth, body armor secured, even driving armored personnel carriers. At the end of the day, 416 terrified children were removed from the complex—and they’re still in custody.

It has now been three weeks. Interesting facts have come to light. First, the anonymous tip was fraudulent. The actual caller turned out to be a 33-year old woman named Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, Colorado. She has now been arrested.

And here’s an interesting twist. She is also listed as a pledged delegate for Barak Obama (check out this link- Swinton is listed as representing precinct 269).

Also, no pregnant thirteen-year-old girls were found. No child was neglected; there are no signs of abuse or rape. There is no indication that anyone was forced to marry. Yet, Judge Barbara Walther, who is overseeing the case, declared: “The court has ruled the conditions those children were in were not safe for the children. I did not make the facts that got this case into the courts.”

I am still looking for facts. This seems to be a telling concern, quoted from MSNBC:

“Experts and lawyers fear the children’s transition to foster care may be much harder than it is for other foster children…Many of the children have seen little or no television. They have been essentially home-schooled all their lives. Most were raised on garden-grown vegetables and twice-daily prayers with family. They frolic in long dresses and buttoned-up shirts from another century.”

So, these boys and girls have seen little television. They have been home educated. They have eaten healthy food. They have participated in family worship. And they wear modest clothing. Oh shudder – the horror!

And now consider the inconsistencies. When I graduated from high school, a class of 92, there were 2 pregnant girls in my class. I am not sure how many others had decided to abort their children, but there were rumors. One of the pregnant girls was also married. I am sure today’s graduating classes have even more examples of promiscuity among today’s youth. Promiscuity is actually encouraged today, with sex education and free condoms being passed out like candy. After the FDLS compound, why not raid the local high school?

And just wander into any honky tonk. Ask around. You will find at least one Bubba proudly proclaiming his “masculinity” by bragging about his sexual prowess. He may have “fathered” a number of children by a handful of women. Isn’t this a form of polygamy—only without Bubba taking the manly responsibility of caring for the mothers? But it’s acceptable for Bubba to continue upon his merry romp through life while the children grow up without a clue as to who their father is – as long as Bubba pays child support and stays out of jail.

And just walk through the local mall. How many folks roll their eyes at, but accept, the fellow wearing more black leather than an Angus bull, spouting vulgar language, sporting body piercings in his ears, cheeks, lips and eyelids, and styled with hair shaved up one side and tinted a lovely shade of lavender down the other? But a woman who desires to dress in a 19th century styled pastel dress is viewed suspiciously—perhaps she’s unfit to raise children because she’s so odd? Where are we headed?

So, the State of Texas seizes children because parents are teaching their children to marry early and live counter-culturally. And this is abuse?

Again, I am not condoning any of the doctrines or practices of the Fundamental Latter Day Saints. Their doctrines will lead children to the gates of hell. But it is not the place of the State to be the thought police. When has a belief been outlawed in this country? When did God give the State the right to parent children? Where are our Constitutional liberties?

This is a very dangerous precedent. Regardless of whether or not you are a Christian homeschooling family or a pagan Wiccan family, this situation in Texas should drive you to action.

For the Christian homeschool family, if you are not members of HSLDA, I encourage you to join!

And I encourage you to follow this situation closely. And pray for America.

Stacy has collected some interesting quotes on this case - HERE.


Responses

  1. This case has made me furious as well. I also saw at Mr. Bachaum’s blog that homeschooling parents are not qualified in Texas to adopt children in state custody unless they agree to turn these children over to the godless school system for the first six months they have them.

    On a different note regarding the wives, I wonder what your take is on divorce? Is it permissible under the adultery laws? Or is she, a woman who has truly converted to Christianity, to remain with her husband viewing him as an unbeliever and submitting to him in hopes of winning him over?

  2. I agree with much of what you say. Unless there is imminent danger (physical or sexual) to a child, parents have a God given right to raise them as they will; and the State should keep out of it.

    We can get dangerously near the position that John Knox took – believing that the State should decide how children should be raised and educated; and should be taken from their parents for this purpose.

    I don’t believe the bible condones child snatching; even if it were done to remove children from Godless households and place them in Godly ones.

    No way does my bible say that.

    Concerned
    H

  3. [...] It’s a ticklish situation, but it needs to be addressed. Happily, I don’t have to; James and Stacy McDonald have taken up the task instead. So, all I have to say is, “Read these [...]

  4. Well done!

    I had been thinking about blogging about this, but you’ve saved me the trouble. :-)

  5. Hi Nickey,

    My doctrinal standard is the Westminster Confession of Faith. It actually has a chapter on marriage and divorce. Although it is long, I have included it below. Refer to paragraphs 5 and 6…

    CHAP. XXIV. – Of Marriage and Divorce

    1. Marriage is to be between one man and one woman: neither is it lawful for any man to have more than one wife, nor for any woman to have more than one husband, at the same time. (Gen. 2:24, Matt. 19:5–6, Prov. 2:17)

    2. Marriage was ordained for the mutual help of husband and wife, (Gen. 2:18 ) for the increase of mankind with a legitimate issue, and of the Church with an holy seed; (Mal. 2:15) and for preventing of uncleanness. (1 Cor. 7:2,9)

    3. It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent. (Heb. 13:4, 1 Tim. 4:3, 1 Cor. 7:36–38 ) Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord. (1 Cor. 7:39) And therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies. (Gen. 34:14, Exod. 34:16, Deut. 7:3–4, 1 Kings 11:4, Neh. 13:25–27, Mal. 2:11–12, 2 Cor. 6:14)

    4. Marriage ought not to be within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity forbidden by the Word. (Lev. 18, 1 Cor. 5:1, Amos 2:7) Nor can such incestuous marriage ever be made by any law of man or consent of parties, so as those persons may live together as man and wife. (Mark 6:18, Lev. 18:24–28 )

    5. Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, giveth just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract. (Matt. 1:18–20) In the case of adultery after marriage, it is lawful for the innocent party to sue out a divorce. (Matt. 5:31–32) and, after the divorce, to marry another, as if the offending party were dead. (Matt. 19:9, Rom. 7:2–3)

    6. Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments unduly to put asunder those whom God hath joined together in marriage: yet, nothing but adultery, or such willful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church, or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage: (Matt. 19:8–9, 1 Cor. 7:15, Matt. 19:6) wherein, a public and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed; and the persons concerned in it not left to their own wills and discretion in their own case. (Deut. 24:1–4)

  6. Amen, amen, amen. And eloquently said, sir.

  7. I’m glad that you understand this group is a cult. Cults are wrong. Yes, our gov’t officials make mistakes and mistakes are wrong. However, I disagree emphatically with anyone who does not see the clear and present danger to these children and that the gov’t social services are bound by law to investigate claims of sexual abuse. It is important to stick with that thought alone. The children- possibly abused. Forget every other argument and everything else that is wrong with the cult, media coverage, the gov’t whatever. Think of the children. They ought not to be abused. Not physically abused, not morally abused, not mentally abused–> brainwashed. God allows things to happen for a reason. *If* in the end of this case, the charge is truly found to be false and the accuser truly made it all up and no witness(es) ever come fwd to verify the accusations of abuse, can ANY good come of this case? I believe good can happen. What if God puts Christian counselors, foster parents, etc… into the lives of these women and children? What if they finally read the Holy Bible for themselves? What if they learn/see that the world, while it is decaying thru sin, does still house God’s people and God’s people minister to others and to each other outside of their little community? What if the women and children learn that Jesus said to obey the gov’t and that our gov’t does not allow multiple wives and incestual marriages? What if they are educated with the best modern science and taught about genetics & history and shown why they ought not to intermarry? Above and beyond these questions are the opportunities for christians to interact with others on what is a cult? Why is it errant? What does God’s Word say? How can we help these people? What percentage of homeschoolers are healthy, “normal”, culturally educated, good citizens? How and why does homeschooling work?

    Furthermore, confrontations with cults in recent Texas history, do not have a history of ending well. We don’t need another Waco. The men(Koresh et. al.) involved in that cult were absolutely aberrant. They highlighted for all of history that cults have three common elements: men, power and sex. Other whacked out religious groups in recent history have men with the same three aberrant elements: men wanting power and using/abusing sex to get their way. Which brings us to another point. Why are the women usually dressed in pastel floral fabrics, such as a baby or young girl in our culture would wear, in a style that belies their womanhood? My theory, the aberrant men want them to remain childlike, just like little girls. It is truly disgusting. It has nothing to do with true modesty and everything to do with a cult attitude of men, power, sex. True female modesty is seen in many, many cultures around the world and in healthy cultures the women wear many different styles/colors of clothing that is “fitted enough to show they are women, and eased enough to show they are ladies” (Nancy Leigh DeMoss).

  8. Hi Susan,

    I encourage you to read the following articles. Perhaps this will help you see the Constitutional issues and the real moral dilemmas at hand…

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62505

    http://fatherhollywood.blogspot.com/2008/04/few-more-thoughts-on-texas.html

    And, again, three weeks and counting and there is not one shred of evidence pointing to abuse.

    Our Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects our freedoms – even the freedom to belong to a cult. These documents have been trashed in this case.

    As to the value of homeschooling, check out http://www.nheri.org – the National Home Education Research Institute.

    By the way, cults are not all headed by men. There have been plenty founded by women as well. The lies of the devil are available to all.

  9. Mr. McDonald, I understand there is a new Wiccan school in a certain state that dresses children in capes, pentagrams, what have you, and teaches them true and honest Pagan witchcraft. What are your thoughts on that?

  10. “I don’t believe the bible condones child snatching; even if it were done to remove children from Godless households and place them in Godly ones”

    What of Satanic households that, while not harming children, teach them unfathomable things, Henrietta?

  11. Jennifer,

    You need to understand we are discussing jurisdictional issues. I do not believe it is the State’s jurisdiction to decide what can and should be taught in the home. If you want to control thought, we might as well head back to Nazi Germany of Soviet Russia.

    The place of the church is to preach the Gospel so that the Great Commission is fulfilled. This is what will change the hearts of the heathen and pagan, the Mormon and the Wiccan.

    Unless abuse is occurring, the government has no jurisdiction over the home.

  12. Of course I don’t believe in controlling thoughts, James. That’s why I don’t approve of these cults.

  13. Hi Jennifer,

    But is this not then what you are advocating? Does the government now have the authority to approve what is “free” thought? And, if thought is now a crime, can they come into any home and break up families?

    We need a category for thought abuse I suppose.

    Heaven help us.

  14. Btw, in regards to this comment:

    “Unless abuse is occurring, the church has no jurisdiction over the home.”

    What sort of jurisdiction do you mean? Spiritual, or literal?

  15. Hi Jennifer,

    That was a typo. I meant (and have corrected) that the State has no jurisdiction over the home except in cases of abuse.

    Sorry for the confusion. I was in the midst of my sermon.

    Blessings,

  16. No problem. Good luck with the sermon!

  17. Hi again,

    I meant that when I wrote the comment, I was in the midst of sermon prep. I preached it today. Now, I am in rest mode.

    Blessings,

  18. “when I wrote the comment, I was in the midst of sermon prep”

    Yep, that’s what I guessed..but not until after I’d already submitted my comment! Forgot it was Sunday (I was sick today, so I missed church). Oh well..

  19. “So, the State of Texas seizes children because parents are teaching their children to marry early and live counter-culturally. And this is abuse?”

    No, other churches teach such things too, and no one bothers them. The state of Texas “seized” the children because polygamy is ILLEGAL, and marrying and having sexual relations with underage girls is ILLEGAL, and these people were doing both.

    As for teaching children to marry early and live counter-culturally, that’s no crime, but it’s no indicator that the people who are doing it are Christians, and neither is wearing an ankle-length dresses or eating wholesome food. Christian Identity cultists, Fundamentalist Mormons, Moslems, many Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and many other types of heretics do the same things. While none of these practices are wrong in themselves (quite the contrary, in fact!) it is interesting to note that it is usually heretical cults who make these practices an integral part of their religious practice, rather than a matter of personal preference.

  20. Hi Cynthia,

    I only have a few minutes to spend on this today as I am off to a funeral.

    You are right. Polygamy is a crime. And you are right. The FLDS group is a cult. I do not even consider them to be heretics – I consider their teachings worse than plain heresy.

    But the issue here is – is there real polygamy? Has anyone been married through State sanction? I predict there will not be one charge of polygamy tendered against any member of this group. And if having sexual relations with more than one woman is against the law, it is time to start rounding up the bubbas in the world.

    As to sexual relations with underage girls being illegal, you are right again. But there are a number of questions here. When did it occur (age wise and between whom), where did it occur (in Texas, Arizona, Utah, elsewhere) and with whom did it occur (specific individuals). A case should be made and arrests made of the appropriate parties.

    I am not sure if you are aware of this, but estimates state that HALF of the families at the FLDS compound lived in monogamous marriages – one man, one woman. They were not polygamous. Yet their children were also taken. Also, a divorced women lived on the compound as well with her children. She was not in a “marriage,” yet here children were also taken. Why were these families in the Big Texas Round Up?

    I never thought I would agree with the ALCU on anything, but I do in this case. This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. What has happened here is analogous to the State taking the children of all those in a large neighborhood or small town without proof and then building a case. People have the right to believe heretical and damnable things in this country.

    Cynthia, I know we don’t agree on many things concerning the workings of the Christian family, but I appreciate your heart here. I believe we share the same fundamental concern – the practices of the FLDS are wicked and their doctrines are damnable. But the Constitution is being trampled on here. I pray you consider this. Right now, the State of Texas has broken the rights these wrong-headed people have. Arrest those who have committed crimes and let the rest go back to their garden patches.

    May the Lord bring His Truth to the lost in the Fundamentalist LDS and may He do the same for the lost in the Texas CPS. Both groups are dangerous.

    Blessings,

  21. First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    Pastor Martin Niemöller

  22. “I never thought I would agree with the ALCU on anything, but I do in this case. This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.”

    Amen!!! I was thinking the same thing!

  23. “And if having sexual relations with more than one woman is against the law, it is time to start rounding up the bubbas in the world.”

    I’ll agree with you here. I saw where someone wrote (on your wife’s blog, I think) asking why they don’t round up all the women in children from some of the more “dangerous” neighborhoods in our country. Surely they’d find plenty of abuse, drugs, and sexual crimes there. Why act differently when it’s a “religious group?” Yes, they are a cult and they are whacko, but they have rights too.

  24. Great post, well said! I especially like how you said “You will find at least one Bubba proudly proclaiming his “masculinity” by bragging about his sexual prowess. He may have “fathered” a number of children by a handful of women. Isn’t this a form of polygamy—only without Bubba taking the manly responsibility of caring for the mothers?” Great point!

  25. “Unless abuse is occurring, the church has no jurisdiction over the home.”

    Hi James:

    In the above, quote, I believe you meant to say “unless abuse is occuring, the STATE has no jurisdiction over the home”, right ?

    Just checking. I’m over from the COTP list – seeing your blog for the first time. Many thanks to you sir for addressing this issue forthrightly & biblically.

    As you may recall, our family moved to East Texas (Nacogdoches) just as you were moving from here to Illinois.

    The cavalier way Texas regards inalienable, God given & Constitutionally protected rights should raise more objections than it has (to this point, at least.)

    I’m shocked to see how evangelical churches hereabouts are clueless and the pulpits silent about this travesty.

    It seems like the FLDS status as a ‘cult’ has given many Christians & churches the ‘out’ to ignore the massive over-reach by the almightly ‘State’.

    I’d like to think many have simply not thought the issues through. But I fear the impetus in the broad evangelical community has been to allow the state to do whatever it wishes – with no objections.

    As long as their main target is those ‘weird groups’ then we’re safe, right ?

    Remember that saying about Nazi Germany, “they came for the trade unionists, and I wasn’t a one, so I didn’t speak out, they came for the Catholics, and I wasn’t one, so I didn’t speak out, they came for the Jews, and I wasn’t one, so I didn’t speak out, and when they finally came for the Protestants like me, there was no one left to speak out…..”

    I pray God that we don’t – in 5 or 10 years time, have to say that with the Branch Davidians & FLDS on the outset, and the homeschooling, Covenantally observing Christian families towards the end !

    The importance of standing up for others rights, even when we disagree with them, is the preservation of the right to conscience before God for all.

    What you said above to the post about the issue being ‘the state isn’t given jurisdiction over families and what beliefs they can teach…’ is the crux.

    I pray the LORD Jesus to give us courage, vision & wisdom for these perilous times.

    David B.

  26. Hi David,

    Yep – caught my typo. I already corrected it.

    There are FINALLY others beside the ACLU taking notice of this issue. Ben Stein just wrote a good op-ed piece at CBS…

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/27/sunday/main4048476.shtml?source=search_story

    Come up and visit sometime!

  27. Thanks James for taking a stand on this!!! I was begining to think I was the only one who had my blood boiling over all of this.

  28. “*If* in the end of this case, the charge is truly found to be false and the accuser truly made it all up and no witness(es) ever come fwd to verify the accusations of abuse, can ANY good come of this case? I believe good can happen. What if God puts Christian counselors, foster parents, etc… into the lives of these women and children?”

    The question isn’t whether or not good can come of a bad situation. We know that God is sovereign and that He will cause all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. He will even use the heathen for His good purpose.

    However, that is irrelevent; it has nothing to do with whether or not the government should trample the rights of the innocent to get to the guilty.

    So, no doubt, when all is said and done and if it was in fact all a big mistake (which I highly doubt – in fact I think it’s likely that abuses have taken place), God may use this travesty to reveal His Truth to these poor folks. If this hadn’t happened, He may have saved them in some other way. It’s not like it was up to the government to “save” them. God’s in control after all.

    Yet, even if that happens, it doesn’t negate the fact that these people were harmed, their rights were violated, and children were terrorized and traumatized. Yes, I know; they were probably terrorized while in the cult, or they may have been traumatized in 15 years when they grew up and became child brides or were forced out of the camp as teen boys with no education. But, if that happened, is God not big enought to use that “bad situation” for His glory too?

  29. A quick note on obeying the law is in order here. If laws have been broken, again, the perpetrators should be prosecuted and put away.

    But I pray we remember that the State has a responsibility to be law abiding as well as the citizen. The State is not free to violate its own laws at a whim – or a false call.

    Our freedoms fade under such tyranny.

  30. David Alan said, “Remember that saying about Nazi Germany, “they came for the trade unionists, and I wasn’t a one, so I didn’t speak out, they came for the Catholics, and I wasn’t one, so I didn’t speak out, they came for the Jews, and I wasn’t one, so I didn’t speak out, and when they finally came for the Protestants like me, there was no one left to speak out…..”

    I pray God that we don’t – in 5 or 10 years time, have to say that with the Branch Davidians & FLDS on the outset, and the homeschooling, Covenantally observing Christian families towards the end !”

    This is the very thing I see coming down the pike. In our little community we are the only family, that I know of, that homeschools. There are people in my own church that would like to see our children forced to go to government schools, even my own father-in-law. I fear if push came to shove none would stand for our constitutional right to homeschool.

    These events are very disconcerting.

  31. I posted this at Stacy’s blog–I hope it is OK to share it here also!

    This situation reminded me of an incident that occurred earlier this year. An 11 year old boy in Colorado fell outside and hit his head during horseplay. The parents immediately took him inside, and began evaluating him for a possible concussion. They decided that he didn’t need immediate medical attention, but that they would watch him at home for signs of a concussion. Unbeknownst to them, however,a neighbor had called 911. When the paramedics arrived, they insisted on evaluating the boy and recommended taking him to the hospital, but the family declined, preferring to continue watching for signs of a problem at home instead. The disgruntled paramedics reported this, and later that night, a SWAT team of 12 invaded the home, terrorized the entire family at gunpoint(they are homeschoolers with 5 other children at home), handcuffed the parents and took the boy to the hospital. Read the full story here:

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59566

    This boy was taken from his home because the state disagreed with his parents’ decisions about his health. They essentially determined that he was being “neglected”, and that it was their job to step in and “fix” the situation. What a terrible violation of this family’s rights and privacy!

    Once it becomes acceptable for the state to invade citizens’ privacy and raid their homes, it will be done for any reason, all reasons, and sometimes no reason at all. I strongly agree with you that we all need to be concerned when we see the state trampling on the rights of parents and undermining their authority.

    I join with you in praying that God will bring salvation to the members of the FLDS group through what they have suffered. Also praying that our government will exercise more care in acting in accord with our constitutional rights, so that our nation can remain free; and that the average citizen will be able to recognize government abuses of authority when they occur and speak out against such abuse.

  32. Hi again James:

    Here is a great commentary on the FLDS situation by William Grigg – a journalist & homeschooling father himself. Indepth & no punches pulled:

    http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/04/quid-spucatum-tauri-est.html

    God save this country from itself !
    Psalm 33:10-12

  33. I think they are starting to do the things they have been doing to families in Iraq to their own citizens. Soldiers busting into innocent peoples homes in middle of night and kidnapping their family members. Pious Mormons being strip searched and body cavity searched must be just as horrified as Muslims going through the same humiliation at Abu Garib. If this is what America has come to , God help us all.

  34. Hi Jan,

    I do not think this is apples and oranges. While there are certainly real issues in Iraq, I do not believe the majority of our fighting men to be doing anything illegal. Likewise, the Texas Rangers and local law enforcement personnel are not at fault in Texas. They were doing their job. Many news reports have documented them shedding tears over the separation of children from parents.

    Again, the issue is the constitutionality of what is occurring. This is the thing we must focus on. This is what we must remember.

    Blessings,

  35. No abuse has been found, although today they figured out a way to go after the boys-something I blogged about.

    It boils down to this: if the state decides they disapprove of the way your children are being raised, being fed, what they wear and how they are being educated, they can come after you. And woe to you if you have children that have had any broken bones in the past because that too is now considered a possible sign of abuse.

    Plain and simple-this is tyranny.

  36. Actually abrianna, abuse has been found. It’s been confirmed that several underaged girls were pregnant and just recently I heard that the mothers have been switching identities and encouraging the children to either lie or keep silent. These people are not innocents, Abrianna, and I think you’re worrying about tyranny in the wrong place.

  37. Jennifer,

    What has happened in the raid on the FLDS compound is unconstitutional and tyrannical. This is not to say the FLDS are not diabolical perverts. The jury is still out on that one. Actually, I doubt a jury will ever be convened. The CPS in Texas is doing all they can to grab headlines and cover their, er, faulty unconstitutional practices.

    Again, the issue is not the FLDS. It is the violation of rights and the dangerous precedent it sets.

  38. Yes, it is interesting that what appears to be happening is the corrupt sacking the corrupt. The state has gone overboard; I just don’t like it when I see what appears to be people defending the FLDS as though they’re completely innocent victims.

  39. Hi again Jennifer,

    The Bible is pretty clear, there is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore, you are right, the FLDS are certainly not innocent. Yet, are the FLDS victims? I think there are some who are. The little ones ripped away from monogamous homes or the children taken from the single mother, possibly. The mothers and fathers who have done nothing wrong are victims. The eighteen year old mother who has not been charged with a crime yet is not allowed to leave freely is a victim.

    The problem is a case was not built against the perpetrators of a crime. Instead we have a big fishing expedition that will eventually embarrass the State government. Indeed, no charges have been filed. I wonder if any will be.

    I pray the ACLU and the CATO Institute continue to pursue the constitutional issues in this case.

    Please, again note. I am not endorsing the FLDS. They are a cult of the greatest proportion. But the issue is our Constitutional liberties here. I pray the State will learn to do things right, by the rule of law.

  40. Don’t worry, I understand what you mean and agree. I’ve just been exasperated by those who speak as though the state’s been the only one in the wrong here.

  41. Jennifer,

    Besides what James said, an underage pregnant girl is not necessarily a form of abuse. Do you know that Texas as a state has one of the highest rates of teen pregancy in the nation?

    If the state was really concerned about that abuse, then why aren’t they going into the junior and senior high schools in the state and taking those girls from their families? After all, that’s where the majority of the teen pregnant girls are.

    And why should the FLDS cooperate with the state? The state has repeatedly violated their consitutional rights, and as I pointed out in my blog post, never had any intention of returning any children to any mothers-via the letter I posted from Arrow Child and Family Ministries.

    Lastly, even if some abuse is going on there, why does that make the entire group guilty? There could be abuse going on in your neighborhood, school or church that you’re not aware of. Does that mean the state should round up your entire neighborhood/school/group/church/whatever and declare all of you guilty? And even if people or you were guilty, does that mean the state has the right to strip people of their constitutional rights?

    And once something like this starts make no mistake, it will eventually filter down to the rest of us.

    That’s why I and others are so concerned-and when the state strips people of their constituional rights, that does make them victims of the state-regardless of what else they may or may not have done. Also, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

  42. “If the state was really concerned about that abuse, then why aren’t they going into the junior and senior high schools in the state and taking those girls from their families?”

    Sorry abrianna, but that’s a logical fallacy many people make. The huge difference is that the FLDS encourages and often enforces under-aged pregnancies; heck, the girls are raised on such expectations a lot of the time. I don’t believe the state is some evil force who planned this all along, so naturally I don’t think it smart that the mothers aren’t cooperating and just giving further reason to think they can’t be trusted.

    “Lastly, even if some abuse is going on there, why does that make the entire group guilty?”

    Surely you’re aware of the group-think that sects and cults operate under? Girls are notoriously treated as meat. There’s no comparison whatsoever to a cult such as this and a regular neighborhood, much as some people would like to believe.

  43. I had this published in Asian Week, those flds folks are messed up but what CPS did is worse.

    http://www.asianweek.com/2008/04/24/little-polygamist-compound-on-the-prairie/

    Little Polygamist Compound On the Prairie
    By: Arthur Hu, Apr 24, 2008 Print Email Share
    Tags: Uncategorized |
    Convicted sex criminal Warren Jeffs builds a walled concentration camp to house his brainwashed welfare abusing harems with 30 to 50 kids per dad. A teen calls former victim Flora Jessop’s who helps runaway brides like they used to rescue slave girls from Chinatown. Most likely, it was a crank caller painting the sect as racists, but Jessup salutes her for feeding state authorities stories of beatings, continuous abuse, and underage marriage so the cops could bust them and whisk an elementary school full of kids to safety.

    But if it’s the parents who committed the crime, why not lock them up too? Just turn the ranch into a Manzanar for polygamists. It can’t be as bad when the Australians “stolen generation” removed 100,000 aborigine children for child protection. The Canadians would love to raid their own Bountiful, but the legal age there is 14 and their polygamy ban might not even be constitutional.

    Oliver Twist never changed the sign at his orphanage from “welcome guest” to “prisoners”. The Japanese intern kids brought clothes and parents. Do the kids think they needed to be rescued from their monster moms? 1 out of every 11 foster children in Florida faces abuse. Nationally it is the African-Americans who suffer most as two thirds of the foster care population, Asians are a mere one percent. The abuse starts as early as 6 months as they are deprived of toys, Bratz, McDonalds, SpongeBob, and Grand Theft Auto. They do housework by 5, and if they marry kids at 13, every mom who looked the other way was a dangerous child abuser.

    Seattle’s tiny Lauria Grace in 1995 was returned to and murdered by her drug addicted mother because her caseworker judged exposure to middle class values was culturally inappropriate. CPS regularly gets blamed when parents beat their infants to death trying to get them to stop crying. In America you can have girls gone wild, moms and girls dressed as ho’s, free love, prostitution, abortion, two dads, orgies, two moms, two teens, acts with horses, arranged marriage, and NAMBLA, but not one dad and three moms. Justice William Brennan stated that privacy disallowed “governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision to bear a child.”. Right.

    Tidy bunks, organic bread, and fulltime mothers certainly looks better than CMT’s redneck trailer home makeover where the boys slept on the couch after a Chef Boyardee supper. Their parents don’t work too many hours at the dry cleaners while their boys grew up into the Virginia Tech killer or copycat. They probably get excellent test scores without “Crazy Asian Mothers who see B+”.

    Barack Obama senior didn’t divorce before he married the senator’s mother. Asians used to do polygamy, and the Hmong are still hounded by authorities for marrying off teens. Most Asians don’t care what happens to a few hundred crazy white folks, but this Asian American feels very sick.

  44. I saw this today…

    Free Market Advises Courts on West Texas Polygamy Case

    Yesterday, Free Market’s legal division filed a ‘friend of the court’ brief in the 3rd Court of Appeals cases over allegations of sexual abuse alleged in the polygamist ranch raid.

    Free Market’s brief does not take the side of the state, or the side of the polygamist families, but is on behalf of every other Texan not involved in the case and the future protections of their parental and constitutional rights.

    The brief lays out the framework the court should follow and advises the courts to ensure they follow procedures and apply legal standards which will protect religious liberty and parental rights in the future, as well as protect any child from harm.

    If the courts are not careful, extreme cases can lead to dangerous precedents. Free Market is doing everything it can to avoid bad precedent resulting from these cases.

    Here is a comment from the summary section that I think is important for every American to consider…

    Parents’ rights to the nurture and upbringing of their children are fundamental rights protected by the U.S. Constitution. Any infringement of those rights must pass muster under strict scrutiny, with the government bearing the burden of proof. The church autonomy doctrine, while there is no indication it need be raised here, forbids a court from interfering with the religious conduct of a church unless a threat to health or safety is shown, to include inappropriate sexual conduct. Evidence and a finding that the state has shown sexual exploitation or misconduct involving minors, or an imminent threat to the health, safety or welfare of minors, provide both the state’s compelling interest under strict scrutiny and a categorical exemption from any protections otherwise available under the church autonomy doctrine. Such evidence and a finding also preclude the need for any substantive analysis by this Court either of parental rights or church autonomy and avoid the subsequent damages to the freedoms of all Texans which would ensue.

    Read the brief here…

    http://libertylegal.org/Img/In%20Re%20Sara%20Steed.pdf

  45. Jennifer,

    I am aware of how cults operate. You also wrote:

    “The huge difference is that the FLDS encourages and often enforces under-aged pregnancies; heck, the girls are raised on such expectations a lot of the time.”

    Isn’t that what the the schools do by promoting safe sex? It is an inconsistent argument on the state’s part to say that the FLDS promoting sex is wrong, but it is okay for the schools to do it because they are state run.

    You also wrote:

    “Girls are notoriously treated as meat. There’s no comparison whatsoever to a cult such as this and a regular neighborhood,…”

    The mainstream U. S. culture also treats girls like meat. Take a look at how short skirts and shorts are for girls 4-6 sizes, not to mention the 7-14 sizes and beyond. Look at the way most girls are dressed on mainstream t.v. shows-and I am talking about shows specifically geared towards children and teens-those shows are also treating girls as meat.

    The state can’t have it both ways-it’s okay for the approved mainstream media to portray grils as pieces of meat, skimpy clothes and all, and schools to promote teen sex but it’s not okay for anyone else to do it because….the state says so, apparently.

    And the latest news from today:

    “An arrest warrant has been dropped for a man thought to be the husband of a teenage girl whose report of abuse triggered a raid on a polygamous sect’s Texas compound, authorities said Friday.”
    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080503/D90E1EFO1.html

    The raid was started by an anonymous phone call that is now known to be false. The state still has the children and mothers.

    The state said it had evidence of abuse, but as James pointed out, not one abuse charge has been filed, and it’s been a month now. The state still has mothers and children in custody.

    Today we discover that the warrant for the man that triggered the raid was dropped-showing once again that the state has no case against these people-yet the children and mothers are still in custody.

    The mothers while in state custody have not been allowed to see their attorneys. When the attorneys showed up to where the state was holding the women, the police refused to allow the attorneys to enter the building to confer with their clients.

    I don’t see how one can look at all the machinations the state has gone through so far and still think it trustworthy.

  46. If I could hazard a guess to this question in the prior post:

    “I don’t see how one can look at all the machinations the state has gone through so far and still think it trustworthy.”

    An overly trusting attitude towards the state, one which invests it with qualities of infallability, omnscience or omnipotence are evidences of people whose relationship with the real God, and His Son Jesus Christ, is broken.

    Funny how we must relate to God in a certain way (by having Him as our genuine & proper, loving authority), or we look to some substitute authority, either a false notion of deity (anti-Christ – some being ‘in the place of Christ’) or some human based entity.

    Today, in America, the most common ‘substitute deity’ is the ‘messianic State’ – the Almighty State that offers itself as our provider, protector – in short, our collective humanistic savior.

    Some have nicknamed it ‘American Civic Religion’.

    I hear doctrinal sermons all the time. They are usually very accurate, biblically speaking.

    What I don’t hear as much is fearless application, for example, where it might be revealed that our violations of the 1st & 2nd commandments might be manifested by our acquiceence to the State & it’s claim to be the owner of us, our children & their futures.

    (why else would the State attempt to number us & our children from birth to death & declare hegemony over our incomes, estates & (incresingly) our churches & ministries ?)

    I mention this to be helpfully self critical. I think a person who believes the state is akin to Deity is WRONG, but in ironic fashion, actually far more consistent than many Pastors & Christians are, who claim Christ as LORD, then turn around & give explicit & implicit support to every action of the State – even claiming that our obedience to God requires that of us.

    Could it be that many of us Christians are sending false & misleading signals (being a bad ‘witness’) to those who do not know who is LORD, Christ or Ceasar, by claiming the first, but actually serving the latter ?

    James, I know you have this sorted out – else you wouldn’t have thought to post this topic on your blog.

    May the tribe of faithful ministers, like you, increase ! May also the number of dis-satisfied Laymen like us, increase, so that you speak to an increasing number who will be used to limit the power of the state.

    Wasn’t it the lack of both of those types of men and women that allowed the rise of the Nazi regieme ?

    Thanks, David A.

  47. Hi David,

    You bring up some very valid points. I would also like to add one thing – I am still working this out. As Paul said in Philippians 3, I have not attained, and I am certainly not perfected, but I press forward for the things God has for me – the upward call of Jesus. My daily prayer is for His cleansing and that He would help me remain faithful to the call.

    And, I agree. When we expect the government to meet our needs, instead of our God, we indeed worship idols.

    That said, we must also beware not to remember the Lord is the one who has established government. Romans 12 was written in a day when a government ruled that was arguably far more wicked than ours.

    But, without the influence a strong church and godly families, our freedoms will continue to deteriorate.

    May the Lord protect His own and refine His church.

  48. “Isn’t that what the the schools do by promoting safe sex?”

    Of course not. Do you think it wrong for schools to teach kids about safe sex? Some kids are going to do it either way; better that they don’t risk AIDS and pregnancy.

    That issue aside, you are still using very faulty logic by even comparing state schools to a cult. There is a world of difference between educating children about safe sex and ENFORCING under-aged unions.

    “The mainstream U. S. culture also treats girls like meat.”

    The culture does not force girls to act like meat; big difference, once again!

    “it’s not okay for anyone else to do it because….the state says so, apparently.”

    The state says no such thing. Here’s what you’re missing, abrianna: the state allows freedom of speech (again, different from the cult). This is not the same as promoting or forcing sexual unions. The state does not force sexual unions by allowing individuals to promote, advertise, or speak about them publicly. And here’s another difference: the state allows individials the right to keep televisions or do without them. If parents don’t want their daughters exposed to the media culture, they can turn off the TV, change the channel, or refuse to own a TV. That’s the beauty of homsechooling as well, which the state also allows. A cult, THE cult, allows no such thing: the mothers and children are not allowed to close their ears in any form to the brainwashing teaching that goes on. Every day of their lives they’re exposed to this poison, nursed on it like milk from their infancy, with no option to do otherwise. This is how cults operate, abrianna, and if you don’t fully comprehend this and how it differs from the state, you really don’t understand how it works.

    I’ll put it simply: the state has not handled this case in the best way. And, like OJ Simpson’s trial proved, when state authorities don’t handle cases well, they can cause people guilty as sin to be set free. Under the circumstances, I’m not happy with the state’s actions. BUT, that doesn’t change my knowledge of how this cult works, so don’t expect me to drudge up a lot of sympathy for them. I feel bad for the children and any other victims, of the cult or state, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were living in a form of captivity long before the raid and it is the defense of this cult-captivity that baffles me.

  49. Hi (again) James:

    Thanks for your response. We are indeed all pressing forward to the upward call of Christ Jesus our LORD, amen.

    I don’t want to be perceived as an ‘anarchist’, but rather as one who longs to see our obedience to all genuine authorities ordered as unto the LORD.

    Isaiah 9:6 & Psalm 2 & Psalm 110 are key challenging passages, that to me underlie a renewed understanding of ‘how to obey proper authority’.

    It seems as if in our day, we’ve been conditioned to obey in things we should question, and conversely, to disobey in things in which we should render due obedience.

    I’d like to submit this column, “Christianity in Eclipse”: How Biblical Christianity is being replaced by state worship:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance141.html

    In light of what he shares, maybe actions like those at the FLDS ranch are to be expected.

    Love to hear your thoughts James.

    David

  50. Jennifer,

    Three things.

    1. This is not a place to argue the heresies of the FLDS. The Texas state government has acted in an irresponsible and unconstitutional manner. Period.

    2. As a minister, I believe sex “education” that is not abstinence based is un-Christian. We should not be teaching children to sin.

    3. Weeks have gone by. There has been no proof of any allegations. There have been no arrests. Not one woman has stepped forward claiming they were forced to marry.

    Until a charge is made by the courts, I think it irresponsible to make such claims as fact here.

    Blessings,

  51. James I appreciate your point above # 1.

    This is the crucial point.

    The actions of the State are inexcusable, as you summarize in # 3.

    The state has chosen this FLDS group partly because they knew that its was such an extreme splinter group, it would have few defenders.

    That has turned out to be true.

    But despite the abhorrence that churches & individuals have (& understandably so) against them, we must NOT miss the main point:

    The actions of the State of Texas & County of Midland have been totally UNJUST, period.

    They have NOT upheld true Law & justice.

    Folks like Jennifer have a hard time getting past the inherint WRONGS that MAY have been done by the FLDS, to see that the WRONGS done by the state are a far greater threat to freedom.

    IOTW, the wrongs of the cult, the FLDS do NOT justify the greater WRONGS of injustice done by the State.

    One of the church fathers said:

    “Without justice, what is the STATE except a great band of robbers ?”

    And the main form our civil justice takes is our limiting the power of civil government & the establishing our inalienable, God derived rights in the written, enforceable US (& State)Constittution.

    The FLDS have been denied:

    Presumption of innocence, the right to face their accusers, reasonable proof of guilt.

    Also, the innocent parties have been held against their will, etc.

    Having their church & ranch raided by SWAT armed men in a armored personell carrier was ‘over the top’, too.

    No reason exitisted for this except showboating. The Sheriff was in phone contact with them & no resistance of any sort was expected or offered.

    Why the APC & Swat teams ?

    I can only think it was for propaganda value – look what will be mustered against those who resist the ‘almighty state’ !

    You’ve made most of these points already. But our education on true Law & unalienable rights is so lacking, they cannot be overemphasized.

    James, my concern is the lack of outrage in those who should know better………(I mean Christian citizens who should be more vigilant in defense of essential rights…)….

    I thank you again for highlighting this problem here.

    Did you read that column by Lawrence Vance (Christianity in Ecllipse) I cited in my earlier post ?

    I think the case can be made (in light of what he cites therein) that there are entire areas of our national life where the church has been silent, or even unwittingly supportive of evil.

    If this is so, we cannot, as a nation, for long, perpetrate injustice half a world away, without that becoming our lamentable standard here on our own shores, against unpopular minorites.

    Once the ‘dogs of war’ are unleashed carelessly, they inevitably turn on their handlers…..

    God Bless you & yours,

    David Alan

  52. David and James,

    I see you have already responded to Jennifer’s questions so I don’t have to. Thank you.

    I will say yes it is wrong to teach safe sex to children. There is no such thing as safe sex unless you are married and faithful to your spouse. And safe sex isn’t working well in Texas is it, since they have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation?

    The bottom line is that the state acted unconstitutionally. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    Lastly, what will people do when the state declares that Chrsitianity is out-lawed? That day is coming. Will the people that defended the state’s actions with the FLDS also defend the state’s actions when the state uses these same actions to come after them?

  53. “Yes, they are a cult and they are whacko, but they have rights too.”

    Don’t mean to make light of this, Kym, but I have to say, that’s a classic statement! :) It’s also how I feel.

    I’d like to clarify that I don’t wish or mean to take my anger at the cult out on anyone here. Abrianna, James and Dave, thank you for speaking to me with respect even if you disagree. I have not had that privilege with some of the liberal (and most likely secular) people I’ve visited on other blogs and the past treatment I’ve had, as well as the frusteration I feel about this whole situation, has shortened my patience somewhat. I do agree that the government has acted badly, but I don’t think they have done so out of a blatant wish to control, nor do I think at this point and time that normal Christians who live by the law have anything to fear. Other than that, I occasionally think the cult members are getting more sympathy than they deserve. The biggest shame, I think, is that the action is being taken against the women and children, rather than the cowardly men who are hiding behind their skirts and not bothering to fight for their children.

    Thanks for lightening my mood, Kym!

  54. Jennifer,

    You’re welcome! One thing I do want to point out in my posts is that I never said I agree with the FLDS or even LDS doctrine. I don’t. My focus has always been on the state’s abuse of power.

    And as you said, why weren’t the men charged with crimes? The fact that none of them have been charged or even detained on suspicion of abuse says volumes about the state’s case and their lack of evidence.

    Here is another post I thought was interesting about why we should all be concerned:
    http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2008/04/96681.html

  55. “And as you said, why weren’t the men charged with crimes?”

    Exactly. I’m afraid, though, that it might have to do with lack of paternity information. This really is a big mess: the victims have been taken, but they’re now victims of another sort. The men are hiding at home, and the women are scared and switching babies around; even the maternity is becoming hard to identify. It just occured to me today that the mothers probably feel like they’re being treated like cattle: rounded up, taken away, and their offspring divided with little or no explanation, just demands. If the State has their best interests at heart, they’re not showing them this; the women and children need to be treated like people if the government wants any cooperation at all. Geez, what a mess..

  56. Great to hear all the comments by you all. There is a lot to ‘sort out’ in this situation, eh ?

    It might be profitable to observe that any cult gains illegitimate power to itself, as a result of usurpatiion of the proper governmental spheres of individual, family government.

    In my observation, it’s usually the abdication of self (individual) & family authority to the church sphere, under a charasmatic leader.

    I realize this may seem ancillary to this discussion, but to me it seems central.

    I’ve heard this process called either ‘totalitarianism’ or ‘collectivism’. I prefer the latter.

    May I propose this ‘map’:

    We have some individuals (and families) that ‘give up’ their self government (that God calls them to) to an unhealthly controlling church body: we call that a ‘cult’.

    It’s a ‘collectivist’ entity, albeit a solitary one.

    On the other hand, and on a much larger scale, we also have the temptation for individuals & families to ‘give up’ their essential self, family (or church) government to the STATE, which makes a far larger & far more powerful ‘Collectivist’ Entity – it grows into the ‘Almighty State’ (I picture here the ‘Big Fib’ Veggie Tales cartoon, but far more menacing to Liberty).

    The latter example of ‘Collectivism’ seems far harder to critique, I’m guessing, because the tendency to engage in it is more commonly indulged.

    So, in the FLDS affair, we appear to have the largest most powerful ‘collectivist’ entity battling against a smaller one: ie ‘Almighty State’ vs ‘Cult’.

    Neither one is balanced, and they appear to be a reaction to each other, and a ‘warning light’ on our societal dashboard.

    God help us order things aright.

  57. James,

    With your permission I would like to link to this article from my blog. I agree with your assessment of the situation and that this an infringement on their rights.

    Also I was wondering if you are familiar with this site.
    http://www.parentalrights.org/blog/

    The UN convention on the Rights of the Child.

    This site is trying to make parents aware of legislation that will be affecting our freedoms.
    As the state is allowed the interpretation of what constitutes “abuse”. Scary!

  58. The latest news on the FLDS case is that the state now wants to inoculate all the children-even though permanent custody has not yet been settled.

    And at the end of the article they insinuate that some of these children may be victims of alcohol or drug abuse.

    Their original abuse charges did not hold up, so I guess they need to find some other abuse charges.

    More here:
    http://yankeecowgirl.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/inoculations-drug-and-alcohol-abuse/

  59. I really wish they wouldn’t do this. Why not just stick with the charges of underaged sex? Those were quite true, as more than half of the girls proved. They need to start focusing on the teens instead of the toddlers.

  60. Jennifer,

    Again, there are no charges. If someone were charged, there would be an arrest warrant. There are no charges, no warrants, no arrests, outside of the women and children.

    There are many, many questions. If a 16 year old is not a virgin, who was she with, was it consensual, how old was he, where it occur. The point is there was no reason for this action. Texas is trying to cover up a very troubling action.

    Peace,

  61. You’re right, there aren’t charges, James, because the men are hiding, the women are hiding them, and paternity is a very unclear issue. But the crimes have occured. The state just hasn’t acquired the proof they need.

  62. Jennifer,

    I respectfully ask you to review your note above, and then consider one of the primary maxims of our legal system – innocent until proven guilty.

    This is a witch hunt. And, again, the real issue is not the FLDS, it is our compromised freedoms.

    Read this if you want to see what is really going on… http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24604291/

  63. The Goverment should promote abstinence only in schools until marriage.

  64. “Innocent until proven guilty”—Yes, this is what protects us all from government tyranny. Without it, *all of us* are at the mercy of the governing authorities, even the most innocent and law-abiding citizens. What concerns me most deeply about this case, I think, is this: I see so many people willing to cast aside constitutional rights and due process “in the best interests of the children.”
    I pray daily that they will realize that this response, while well-intentioned, will only lead to terrible losses of freedom never seen before in the history of our country.

    James, thanks for the news link and for hosting this discussion.

  65. I see no problem with schools teaching kids safe sex, so long as they are encouraged to wait. Some kids will wait and some won’t, so it’s important to ensure that those who won’t at least know how to avoid deadly diseases and pregnancy.

  66. James, I agree that the State has used very bad means here, but I don’t think it’s a witch hunt. A witch hunt occurs when someone totally innocent is chased by someone else who knows they’re innocent and acts purely out of malice, hate, or tyranny; it’s much like scapegoating. We know that this sect is guilty; they’ve been guilty for decades and, as I’ve stated before, I don’t believe the government is acting purely out of malice. The problem is not the question of innocence, it’s the absence of proof. The state has forgotten, to their own detriment, that even if someone is guilty as sin, they cannot simply drag them into court based on knowledge alone; there must be evidence. The state has made a grave mistake here.

    Thanks for the link, though I’ll say the young woman and her husband are huge exceptions. Not only is monogamy rare as manna with these people, but this is the first time I’ve heard of one of the men finally showing his face. Plus, I am aware of the fact that NBC is greatly run by liberals who enjoy making the government look bad; naturally they’d paint the State as cold-blooded hate-mongers and the sect members as sugar-sweet “Little House on the Prairie” knock-offs.

    Peace

  67. Jennifer, I am sorry, but biblically, sex outside of marriage is sin- period. If someone is going to sin, you don’t teach them how to be “safe” about it. You teach them that it is wrong. You don’t give them a pretensive “safety measure” just because some will do it anyway. As Christians, we are to take the higher road- not take the low road to “protect” those who will choose to do wrong anyway. However, the case of sex “education” is not the issue of this thread.

    Now, I will get to this thread. I just wanted to thank James (and Stacy) for their comments on this issue. I happen to agree with what they are saying- wholeheartedly!

    I also agree with some of the other posters. I feel it is very probable that Christians could be next. To pretend that this is just an isolated incident with the FLDS church only because of their “out there” views, is irresponsible. I believe this case could *potentially* set precendence. Our freedoms have been challenged in generations past, and to turn a blind eye now is dangerous. (So many think that the freedom to homeschool is here to stay… don’t forget what JUST happened in California. I’m not taking a fatalistic approach, but we need to be realistic, too! )

    I disagree with the FLDS cult. I do not support what they do. However, I do believe the state has a responsiblity to follow the law, as do the citizens. And in this case, it (the law) has been violated by the state. We need to be praying for these families and children. We also need to unite and take action when injustice has occurred (no matter what you feel about the FLDS cult), else who will take action for us- when it comes knocking at our door? This has been a matter of state misconduct.

  68. I’m well-aware that fornication is a sin, Brandy, but I fail to see your point. I think it far more sinful for Christians to take the low road by leaving secular students to the risk of AIDS and pregnancy in order to punish them for doing the wrong thing.

  69. Again, I do not support the FLDS, but what happened to them was frightening Constitutionally. Looks like the courts got it right…

    “SAN ANGELO, Texas – A state appellate court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials had no right to seize hundreds of children from a polygamist sect’s ranch on April 3.”

    Another interseting quote…

    “Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

    Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.”

    Read the news report here…

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/


Categories

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

%d bloggers like this: